There was a recent Facebook extravaganza (conversation) regarding prayers to the departed saints which was touched off by my claim that this was little better preparation for heaven than studying the latest Playboy centerfold in preparation for marriage. Towards the end of the comments section, I suggested that there was a bit of gnat straining and camel swallowing going on, and my friend Matt Peterson was somewhat taken aback by that characterization and requested an explanation. So here it is.
While I haven’t had the time to go back through and read all of the comments (I have a wife and four young children), from what I skimmed over, I actually don’t have a huge problem with the points Matt was making. He seems to have been working hard to guard some broader principles regarding our union with Christ, and he wasn’t so concerned about defending the particular practice of prayers to saints. He just wanted to make sure that I (and the cyber world at large) didn’t reject it on the wrong grounds. And fair enough. I have no qualms with careful distinctions; truth matters.
But here’s my concern that I don’t think Matt has caught on to yet. Whether we’re talking about icons or prayers to the saints in the Eastern or Roman churches or walking the aisle, praying a prayer, and signing a card in the Evangelical churches, there are millions of souls in grave danger. They are in grave danger because they think they are saved because of this external conformity to some ritual or practice. But this is not the same thing as being born again, being forgiven, washed clean with the blood of Christ, and being filled with the Holy Spirit. And Reformed people do it with Calvinistic soteriology, infant baptism, Christian education, whatever. Every tradition has their shibboleths. And then on top of that, there is a current outbreak here in the US, where the Roman and Eastern churches are getting inundated with Evangelical burnouts. These are people who don’t understand the gospel, have serious issues in their families, don’t understand submission to authority, and in a grip of an idea, something shiny and ancient looking, are sprinting towards full blown idolatry looking for something to bandage the gaping hole in their souls.
Meanwhile, I happen to know that the Eastern and Roman churches aren’t bastions of Christian freedom. For all the fine distinctions between dulia and latria, there are millions of people enslaved by their sins and kept under the thumb of that guilt through ignorance, superstition, and manipulation by practices, rituals, and doctrines propagated by those churches. I happen to believe that there are true Christians in those churches, both in leadership and among the laity. But when I meet a Roman Catholic or an Orthodox on the street, I almost always come away disappointed and sad. Here’s another slave. And what these people need is not a grad school theology class. They need a simple explanation of the gospel: You’re a sinner. Jesus died and rose again on your behalf. He is King of the world. Repent and believe.
The camels and gnats I was referring to were not the fine distinctions in themselves. The camels and gnats are these: If the world is full of people eating rat poison, and someone points out that rat poison isn’t good for you, what good is it for a bunch of people to get on their blogs and facebook pages ranting and raving about how unfair people are being to the purveyors of rat poison? Don’t tell me rat poison has a good and honorable use, that its history and traditions are glorious. That’s not the point. When people are eating rat poison they need to be warned not to eat rat poison. If people are strangling themselves with icons, don’t become all blustery about the proper use of Christian art.
Whatever the best possible characterizations of praying to pictures may be, the fact is that millions are currently on their way to hell, masturbating their souls with icons and incense and prayers to St. Gertrude. That’s called camel swallowing and gnat straining.
These people need Jesus not someone defending their porn problem, even if there is such a thing as nudity in fine art.
So blessings to all you true believers in Jesus, and may the Holy Ghost haunt all you sons of the devil who are held captive by your sin and guilt. God knows who you are, and so does your wife.
Jess R. Monnette says
Toby – great stuff! Thanks!
Peter says
Toby, I think these are points well worth pointing out, and I agree, in the main. However, I wonder why we’re so concerned about Roman and Eastern idols when there are plenty of Protestant idols. Whether it’s the Anglican liturgy, The Westminster, Praise Music, Missionary work, or the Sacredness of the Classical Christian school, we are all in danger of being enslaved by the Good that God has given us. I have not followed the discussion on FB so I don’t know if this comment is pertinent to that, but I am curious about your apparent assumption that somehow, the Protestant point of view makes us less susceptible to the slavery of idolatry? I know that many feel our Sola’s etc help protect against this, and yet, as you allude to, the Sola’s can easily be and idol themselves. I would think that the saddest part of the scenario you are describing about the flight to Rome and the East is that in many cases it’s clear people are tired of their paper idols (Westminster? Solas?) and are trading them for golden (icons) and marble (cathedrals) idols.
So, thanks for knocking down the idols, and at the same time because of the where these folks are coming from, I think it is likely they will misunderstand your argument, and they will understandably defend the superiority of gold to paper at length and with vehemence. Somehow it needs to be clear that you are not a partisan for paper idols, but a spokesman for the Living God. And I think this is the difficult part that requires miracles. At the center God wants a relationship with His people, and that does not make sense to fallen humanity, we don’t believe or want it in our natural man, so we find all kinds of other distractions to explain and replace the actually very frightening truth that God is with us, and He is a Jealous God, and He had died and is risen again, to bring us back.
One other comment; also, as you allude to, there are people who do know Jesus and are walking with Him, who believe that gold and marble are more appropriate adornments for Christ’s bride than paper. Their prima facie argument seems pretty good. And I’m not too happy with the traditional Protestant rejections that rely on the regulative principle, or a neo-gnostic rejection of the shiny things because they inherently distract and provoke the lust of the eyes. So, I assume your main argument is to call people back to the Protestant tradition because we still have more people who care about relationship–more of us seem to have our priorities right. Is this right? Or am I missing a big part of your point of view here?
Bill Brewer says
I would have to disagree with Peter. I thought you made the point that this is a cross denominational dilemma. I think this is nothing more than just humans’ sinful response to our own creations . We want so badly to have a concrete and tangible THING to interact with that we take the good or innocuous THING and make it a idol. Icons, Creeds, Sainthood, the cross, the papacy, music, the Psalms, KJV(1611), and on and on we go. We make these and have always made these bits and pieces part of the Gospel but they are not. I agree with you statement above Toby ” You’re a sinner. Jesus died and rose again on your behalf. He is King of the world. Repent and believe.” That is what needs to be taught. It is what I think Paul meant when he wrote “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” 1Cor 2:2.
I also don’t just mean taught to non-Christians. I think we all need this reaffirmed every week to us by our shepherds. Every week from the pulpits we should hear “you are a sinner, Jesus Christ died for you , repent and believe on him and your sins are forgiving” We don’t here this anymore especially in evangelical protestants churches. That is why people are leaving in droves to the Reformed churches only to find they are not very different than what they came out of. So then onto the older denominations. We ( I include myself in this) are running around crying our souls out trying to find leaders that will tells us what the word of God says. Absolution is what we seek; not another lecture on how we fall short and what WE should do about it. Longing to hear that God loves us and forgive us because of Christ. Not anything WE can or could do.
Peter says
Bill, I don’t think you actually disagree. I acknowledge that Toby points indirectly to the protestant idols as well. The question I have is really about how we can effectively identify and knock them down. They are harder to see, if for no other reason, because they are our family idols. For instance, I don’t know if you are making the “Gospel Preaching” you describe an idol, but I’m sure some people do. Any antidote to one kind of idolatry seems that it can become an idol shortly thereafter. We agree that the problem is the fallen human heart.
That’s where the difficulty lies. That’s where I want a clarification. Why exactly does Toby think the protestant church is a better place to be… and how does that reason not become and idol.
Matthew N. Petersen says
Thanks for this, it helps.
A few thoughts: I agree that there are serious problems with nominalism in Orthodoxy, and those problems can and should be addressed. The average Russian peasant, or the average Greek peasant probably does not know Christ well. But the same thing can be said of Protestants. The average Scotsman, or German, or Englishman, or resident of Geneva does not know Christ at all. And even if we look at the average American Presbyterian: you would probably have hesitations about calling most Presbyterians Christians at all. The PCUSA has 2 million members, the PCA 0.3 million. There about seven times as many members of the PCUSA than the PCA. So while I agree that you can, and probably should, come away sad after an encounter with an Orthodox or Catholic, I believe the same can, and should be said, of your average encounter with a Protestant–or at least if there wasn’t a large selection bias.
Indeed, I wonder if your System I may not be tricked to over-emphasize the problems in Orthodoxy, and under-emphasize the problems in Protestantism.
Second, while I agree that some converts fit your description, and I believe there are several that come quickly to your mind, I doubt that the issues are nearly so universal as you seem to be making it. I wonder again if your System I is tricked to believe the problems you listed by the ease examples comes to mind. Could you name 12 converts who fit your description, and 3 who are doing well? I don’t know all the details, and you may know them better than I, but I believe J. G., M. Y., J. B., and J. B. are examples of good converts, and I can come up with them as quickly (if not far more so) as I can come up examples of bad converts.
Finally, I believe I do not think Prayers to the Saints and Icons are (at least potentially, I have serious reservations about Catholic prayers to the saints) are as damaging as you do. James Jordan says in The Liturgy Trap that prayers to the saints are not, on the individual level, a serious sin, and I think I agree with him. And I believe any discussion of icons must recognize the fundamental shift in the nature of icons in the Old Covenant. In the Old Covenant an idolater was whoring after other gods–and I believe that is the connotation of idolatry even today. But an Orthodox or a Catholic is not whoring after other Gods when they use icons, they are worshiping the True God, wrongly.
Indeed, icons help overcome some of the far more serious Christological errors that the Reformed often struggle with. I would far rather be found praying to Jesus Christ, my King and my God through an icon, than to a god who can only equivocally be said to have been born and died. And though I would not simply say the Reformed make that second error, it is one they are prone to, and that some very influential Reformed have made, in at least some of their writings.
Also, as I have said before, the Orthodox and Catholics have answered questions, perhaps wrongly, that we do not seem to have answers to at all. Namely, what is the lex orandi for the lex credendi “communion of the saints”, and where is God located for us? We would do better finding good and proper answers to the questions, than simply denying false answers.
Adam says
Peter,
“Enslaved by the good God has given us?” Is such a thing possible?
In one sense, yes, such a thing is certainly possible. However, I would argue that being concerned with worship, missions, and Christian education is hardly idolatry.
Of course, it may be idolatry, but that brings me to the big question: the one that is at the heart of the discussion on Facebook.
Where is the line of idolatry drawn?
The answer to that question is this: it is drawn in the heart.
If I believe in Baptism, it is because I believe in what God said about it. If I believe in missions, it is because I believe what God commanded regarding it. If I believe in educating my children, it is because I believe in what God taught regarding it. If I believe in the good things of God, it is because I believe in the God from whom are all good things.
On the other hand, if I believe in the good things of God merely because they’re part of a tradition I was raised in, and thus, not because I believe in God, then I am somewhere in the realm of idolatry.
The pattern in Scripture, and even in the fathers of the reformation (Luther, Calvin, et al), is this: true faith actively trusts in God’s promises.
God didn’t give His people rituals as a test to see if His people would choose Him over the rituals. He gave them rituals through which to believe Him.
The Church rejected docetism two thousand years ago. There isn’t a “true” Christianity of pure ideas, set free of all ritualistic embodiment.
When we start making petty distinctions, and (God forbid) dichotomies, between ritual, doctrine, and faith, we have already gone to far.
David says, “For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”
And then, immediately, he goes on to says, “Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.”
David makes a distinction in a time of great turmoil over sin. He expresses the priority of a contrite heart. However, he doesn’t, as a result, dismiss the ritual of God. Rather, he exalts the ritual as the goal.
Evangelicalism – modern evangelicalism – belittles God’s rituals because it thinks that by doing so it exalts some bodiless gospel, some bodiless “faith”. This is the result of a complete misreading of New Testament. One which believes that the true, pure, teaching of Christ is represented by the statement “he who believes…” taken out of context, and disassociated from the community Jesus came to institute. Jesus’ words about rituals, work, cooperation, and judgment aren’t part of this “pure” gospel which is separated from the outward, unnecessary, merely illustrative rituals and work.
Adam says
?Toby,
Interesting post. I will put aside the accusation that many, if not not most, Orthodox Christians don’t understand that they are sinners, that Jesus rose from the dead on their behalf, that He is king, and that they must repent and believe in him. I’ll put that aside because the very rituals you denigrate include daily prayers of repentance, faith, the recognition that we are sinners, and that our life is IN the resurrected Christ, who is king. There’s as much gospel in the first minute of the prayer rule than there is in a full hour of a typical evangelical sermon. I’ll put the accusation aside because it’s an absurd statement that reflects a badly drawn caricature of Orthodoxy based on a view from a distance (probably based on a view of Roman Catholicism) .
A pastor who holds to classical reformed theology – of the Auburn Avenue stripe – ought to know better than to write something like this: “they think they are saved because of this external conformity to some ritual or practice.”
This sounds like it was written by Morecraft in response to Doug, or Peter. Of course the Orthodox believed they are saved because they were baptized! The Bible says they were! “And now Baptism saves us!”
My response could as easily be lifted from a Leithart article.
We are saved by grave, through faith, and that faith is not of the docetic gnostic variety. That faith is grounded in real events, and rituals, given to us by God. Rituals that do things, especially in those who believe in God’s promises. If Baptism grafts us into Christ, as Calvin taught, then Baptism does something, and we ought to trust in God’s promise. That’s what true faith does, in fact, that’s what it is.
The Bible, and the early Church, teach us that baptism IS “being born again, being forgiven, washed clean with the blood of Christ, and being filled with the Holy Spirit.” The scriptures state this over and over again. Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Theophilus, Irenaeus, the Didache, and so on, all taught baptism is the washing of forgivingness, and new birth. Being washed with the blood of Christ isn’t merely a neat idea it is a physical reality in Baptism, and the Eucharist.
I found it interesting that you mentioned that the Reformed “do the same thing.” You’re saying that the Reformed “think they are saved because of this external conformity to some ritual or practice…”? It’s interesting to me that you mentioned “Christian education” as an example of a ritual by which the Reformed “think they are saved”. What do you do with Paul’s statement that women are “saved by child-birth”, and similar statements? Perhaps you wrote a bit too hastily? If so, shake it off, we’re all guilty of that.
At least the Orthodox trust in God through the sacraments and not “Christian education”, and “Calvinistic soteriology.” Modern calvinists have traded God’s rituals for their own. They’ve traded the Federal Vision, for the Docetic Vision. Even so, among the evangelicals the Calvinists are some of the most sympathetic to ritual. To their credit I suppose. Which brings me to another question: would you make the same broad generalizations regarding Lutherans, and Anglicans? They certainly believe in the efficacy of Baptism as new-birth, etc.
And, finally, I’m not sure what you were getting at with this statement:
“And then on top of that, there is a current outbreak here in the US, where the Roman and Eastern churches are getting inundated with Evangelical burnouts. These are people who don’t understand the gospel, have serious issues in their families, don’t understand submission to authority, and in a grip of an idea, something shiny and ancient looking, are sprinting towards full blown idolatry looking for something to bandage the gaping hole in their souls.”
Are you attempting to describe evangelical burnouts? I say, Toby, there seems to be a running theme in your comments on this subject: ad hominem.
I’ve met dozens of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy. Our parish converted – together with several other evangelical parishes across the US – to Orthodoxy many years ago. Our Church is full of these “evangelical burnouts”. However, their story was not one of burning out, but one of searching the scriptures, and the early Church for guidance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-FmAaT7Ivs
http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Orthodox-Journey-Ancient-Christian/dp/0962271330
We certainly did not burn out. There’s so much to love about the high-church, high-scrament, high-family, Reformed tradition. Christian education comes to mind immediately.
About ten years ago I thought that we MIGHT end up Orthodox. I wasn’t burned out, I was studying the Bible, and the early Church – I was studying the Federal Vision and the reformers too. I wasn’t even close to being comfortable with Orthodox practice. I had no intention on converting to Orthodoxy. However, I knew I couldn’t simply reject it out of hand, and so, periodically I would take some time to study an issue. On every issue I felt that the ancient Church was right, and I was wrong. There was a pattern emerging. I wasn’t defaulting to Orthodox as a result of being burned out in evangelical land. I was being a responsible Bible believing Christian and asking myself difficult questions. I put off seriously considering Orthodoxy as long as I could.
Then again, I suppose you can call disinterest in docetic variety evangelicalism ‘burning out’. Our lives are ritualistic. There’s no escaping that. The problem with evangelicals isn’t that they’ve abandoned ritual, it is that they’ve abandoned God’s rituals, and the Church he founded.
Adam says
Toby’s statement regarding some evangelical converts to Orthodoxy, or Roman Catholicism, were not reflective of myself, or my family. He had said: “These are people who don’t understand the gospel, have serious issues in their families, don’t understand submission to authority…”
It could be construed by some that you were talking about me, and my family, since we are recent converts to Orthodoxy, and was involved in this Facebook conversation.
Let me be clear:
Jaime and I have never had problems with our marriage! Toby is NOT referring to us. He is referring to someone else, and their family! Please do not take Toby’s statement as referring to me, or my wife and family. We’ve had a wonderful marriage. We’ve never come to Toby, Peter, or Doug for any counsel in our marriage because we haven’t needed any.
Let me be clear:
I don’t have any problems with submission to authority. While under the care of the elders of Trinity Reformed Church I was never approached in any way regarding a lack of submission to authority. In fact, I was never approached in any disciplinary way whatsoever.
Vincent says
While it seems obvious that you have no idea what the Orthodox Church is, teaches, practices, believes (however you want to put it), you should know that we actually do understand that we are sinners and in need of God’s Grace.
In fact, our most common prayer is “O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”
So, we get it.
Basically, the rest of your post was ad hominem and red herring, so I’ll leave you in peace.
As such,
V
SarahS says
” And then on top of that, there is a current outbreak here in the US, where the Roman and Eastern churches are getting inundated with Evangelical burnouts. These are people who don’t understand the gospel, have serious issues in their families, don’t understand submission to authority, and in a grip of an idea, something shiny and ancient looking, are sprinting towards full blown idolatry looking for something to bandage the gaping hole in their souls.”
Pastor, that’s a distressing lack of insight and compassion for a shepherd. Many converts are nothing like what you describe, at all. But for the ones who may have serious family issues and lack a proper understanding of authority (I’ll gladly stand in the front of that line) has it never occurred to you that their Calvinist -leaning, sola scriptura, homeschooling, patriarchal, corporal punishment, first time obedience, opposite of mainstream evangelical background might be the reason for many of those problems, and that when they stood looking at the wreckage of their faith and home, already understanding the futility of evangelicalism, the options were pretty narrowed down. I did look longingly at a Messianic congregation for about a year before I discovered that the Catholic faith (Roman Catholic, as you consistently and erroneously term it) has beautifully preserved our Jewish roots.