Introduction
So amid all the other circus events, this last weekend, Christian Twitter erupted with shrieks of horror when Pastor John MacArthur told a conference audience that his thoughts on Beth Moore could be best summarized as “Go home.”Â
In response, the current SBC President JD Greear assured Mrs. Moore that she was most welcome at his home any time. And various feminists and egalitarians clutched their pearls, while a number of conservatives who don’t think Mrs. Moore should actually be preaching made various throat clearing noises about Christian love and kindness, and how sad they were about how mean some “leaders” can be, and while they had their differences, they were still thankful for her ministry. And others warned breathlessly that this is how evangelicalism will continue to lose the next generation.Â
Meanwhile, NPR tweeted out some idiocy about “people” menstruating.
A Preliminary, But Related Rabbit Trail
Now in order to address this business, I’d like to draw upon a matter of considerable concern and discussion in my community, a matter that faces most communities in these dark days of ours, and that is the matter of girls showing up to play contact sports with our sons. From wrestling to lacrosse to football to hockey, it’s a real issue since we are committed to teaching our sons to honor all women as sisters and mothers, and the culture we live in is committed to the opposite. In some instances, the honorable choice is clear and obvious: our sons will not wrestle a girl. It’s immodest, dishonorable, and shameful. Period. Full stop. So our boys who wrestle forfeit any match with a girl. But when it comes to lacrosse and football there are a number of complicating factors, and there are real wisdom calls to be made. The first principle remains in place: our boys are instructed not to tackle or body check girls. Of course in these confused days, it is not always possible to know if there is a girl on the field. But to the best of our ability, we will avoid any and all roughness with girls.
Depending on the circumstances, what position a girl is playing against our boys, this is sometimes fairly easy to accomplish (like if the girl is a goalie or kicker), and sometimes it is nearly impossible (like when she’s playing running back). Our general commitment is to play hard and play as much as we can without compromising our Lord’s requirement to honor all women. At times, this has proved impossible, and we have cheerfully forfeited games or pulled off teams where we could not function within our principles. On occasion, our boys are having to learn how to push a girl out of bounds as gently as possible. And some parents have given their boys slightly varying instructions depending on the situation, and we’re committed to supporting one another as we navigate this minefield with our sons. At the same time, we have determined in general not to merely roll over and quit the field. Our coaches and athletic directors are fairly vocal about our principles with other coaches and league officials, and our longterm hope is to win others to our convictions. But these problems are certainly not going away any time soon, and we (and our sons) need to learn how to fight, sometimes how to fight with one arm tied behind our back, and how to fight as honorable Christian men.
All of this is a rather lengthy preliminary rabbit trail to my cheerful and robust support of Pastor MacArthur’s comments regarding Beth Moore. But I hope they prove a helpful rabbit trail. My support of MacArthur’s comments do not come from any sort of animus to women, any delight in dishonoring women (and certainly not Mrs. Moore), but from my commitment (which I assume Pastor MacArthur shares) to honor all women and to fight honorably for the cause of Christ. I take Pastor MacArthur’s comment as the unfortunate but necessary push out of bounds that a Christian gentleman is sometimes duty bound to give when a woman has gotten out of her lane. [Let the shrieks begin!] But your complaint is not with me or with Pastor MacArthur. Your complaint is with God and His clear word.
I’m not even addressing the content of Mrs. Moore’s preaching. I am merely speaking of the fact that she openly and defiantly claims to preach. This is shameful. She ought to be ashamed of herself. Her husband ought to be ashamed of himself. Her pastor and elders ought to be ashamed of themselves. But apparently none of them are. They openly flout the word of God. When the Bible says that a woman must not have authority over men or instruct them in the Word but to be silent in church, Beth Moore sneers at the God of Heaven and says she knows better. But what is worse are all the cowardly men around her who have flattered her and refused to actually love her in the truth. Pastor MacArthur said out loud in public what her husband and Christian brothers closest to her should have been saying for years, “Go home.” And yes, this is Christian love because love is treating others lawfully from the heart, and God’s law is clear at this point. Â
Our Problem
Much of our problem in this area is related to the fact that modern Christians have become accustomed to soft men and soft preaching and viscerally trained to hate and despise all masculine preaching. For example, if John the Baptist showed up one day in modern America he would no doubt be burned at the stake by noon with several PCA and SBC pastors leading the proceedings. But it is a shameful fact that many women, no doubt Mrs. Moore included, would give more hearty sermons than your average seminary graduate these days, as seminaries, with very rare exceptions, are places where men go to get neutered. And if you’re going to have a biological man stand up in the pulpit and mince his words and lisp and share his feelings for an hour and try to relate to everyone in the room with stories and illustrations and clever jokes, you might as well get a real woman to do it. She’s a lot better at all of that, and plus she’s a whole lot easier on the eyes.
The reason NPR has the audacity to talk about “people” menstruating without fear of getting laughed out of existence (as it should) is because the evangelical Church has been led by menstruating people for a long while. What I mean is that we flouted God’s word a long time ago when we insisted on having therapists instead of preachers, life coaches instead of preachers, politicians instead of preachers, relatable stand-up comedians instead of preachers, anything but men declaring God’s word authoritatively. We insisted we knew better, sneering at God’s requirement that preachers and pastors be men who ruled their own households well with believing children. We wanted CEOs and TED talks and pep rallies and rock concerts, various and sundry, generic people, but absolutely no authority, no masculinity, no plain speaking about the holiness of God, the reality of Hell, the substitutionary atonement, and the necessity of repentance unto life and church discipline to that end. Of course none of that is popular work among the masses, and it doesn’t make a pastor particularly relatable or approachable, especially to a certain class of ambitious woman — as it most certainly shouldn’t. But God insists on male preachers and pastors because the Church, and the Pulpit in particular, is a battlefield.
The reason God calls men to preach is the same reason he requires that only men engage in military combat. And the reason is at least twofold. First, he requires men to go to war because he made them physically strong. Women have many glorious strengths, but God made men to be naturally physically strong. This is our glory, and it takes considerable physical strength to preach faithfully, to pastor consistently, and to rule your household all while ruling the people of God. If that seems strange and unlikely, welcome to the impotent modern church and witness the many pastors who struggle with depression and suicide — most of them should have been weeded out in basic training. Second, God requires men to go to war because He requires men to lay their lives down first. This is the oldest code of honor, as it began in the garden of Eden when God pictured that code of honor in the creation of the first woman from Adam’s bloody side. The same standard of honor was codified in Israel’s law, and it was ultimately accomplished in the gospel when Jesus died for His bride. But it is for all of these reasons and more that God has commanded His Church to be led by men. Men are to be heralds of the gospel. Men are to lose their lives by dying for their flocks, their families, their nations. Jesus calls that love. And yes, the Lord is free to raise up the occasional Deborah in the face of masculine cowardice, but that will always be to our shame and never to our glory, just as Deborah herself said.Â
Toxic Scripture
And speaking of things you can find in the Bible, I’m a little concerned about what will happen if the evangelical Twitterverse actually reads the Bible sometime. I mean, they might come across Isaiah talking about the wanton daughters of Israel, and that might, uh, what do they call it? Oh right, it might trigger them. Or what about when Jeremiah describes armies fleeing in fear as becoming fearful like women? Did that get deleted from the ESV yet? I’m sure someone is doing a Hebrew word study on it presently. Or what about Jesus Himself? I mean, he had the audacity to nearly say the same thing to the Samaritan woman as Pastor MacArthur said to Beth Moore ? Go and get your husband? I mean, seriously, what kind of heteronormative, patriarchal toxicity is that? Did he even have authority to do that since he wasn’t her local pastor? And then there’s Titus 2 [gasp], and even Peter got in on the misogyny in his first letter — submitting to disobedient husbands, quiet and gentle spirit, calling a husband ‘lord’?! What was God thinking? Well, Peter always was a hothead. And then all that Jezebel whoredoms business in Revelation. Hopefully, they just stick to their Twitter bites of Bible, all the happy verses that stroke their egos and self-deceptions. Otherwise, they might find themselves agreeing with that recent British court’s ruling that the Bible is “incompatible with human dignity.”
Real Glory
But the real tragedy in all of this is Mrs. Moore’s abandonment of her real glory — the glory waiting for her at home. She and her husband and pastors scorn the glory of womanhood, of homemaking, but her own home, not JD Greear’s home, or anyone else’s home, is where her glory waits. And one day she will stand before the Lord of the Universe, and all the baubles of human glory and all the Greek word studies and clever arguments will flee away, and the Lord will ask what she did with the glory of her home that He gave her. I don’t know the answer to that question, but John MacArthur’s two word response was one of the best I could imagine. He blessed her even as he gave her a brotherly shove. Get off the field, Mrs. Moore. You are a lady. Your calling is higher. You have a different glory. You deserve better.Â
No one but God knows all the hearts of the folks in the congregation listening to Pastor MacArthur’s answer. Was the laughter mere scorn? Was the laughter mere malice? I supposed such fleshly impulses were no doubt scattered about the room, and perhaps even some of the godly laughter could be tinged with such mixed motives. But I have much higher regard for Pastor MacArthur and Phil Johnson. And when you parade yourself out on to a field of battle, demanding that you be treated as a pastoral equal, you’ll have to pardon us if we laugh at the silliness of the thought. No, ma’am, not a chance. Go home. And if you take that as demeaning and rude that is only because you have already demeaned your Maker and His Word and the calling of preaching.Â
Her Christian Brothers
It wasn’t too long ago, maybe a year or two ago, when Beth Moore published some kind of open letter to her Christian brothers recounting how she has been the butt of jokes, sexually objectified and harassed, and perhaps worse, throughout the course of her ministry. I have no objection to those sins actually being addressed, and in fact, my objection to that open letter was the vagueness, the fact that it didn’t really address the problems she outlines. Where were the names of the men who acted so shamefully? Where were the names of the churches, the dates of the incidents? Where is your husband? Your pastor? Have they offered to confront those men for you? Let me say this clearly: Mrs. Moore’s sin does not justify any other sin. Her refusal to submit to God’s Word and her insistence that she be allowed out on the field of battle to “preach” is high handed rebellion, but it does not justify any dishonorable conduct toward her at all. But I will say that she is a seething stumbling block to her Christian brothers and if she really cared about seeing her Christian brothers growing in holiness rather than just manipulating them to fawn all over her, she would repent of her insolence and go home.Â
Mark the Men
And to my three readers who are still reading, wondering what my next offensive remark might be, let me urge you to mark the men, the pastors in particular, who are standing around flattering Mrs. Moore right now and in various ways distancing themselves from Pastor MacArthur. Mark those so-called “conservative” “complementarian” men. They are not to be trusted as pastors or leaders in the church. I’m saying nothing about eternal destinies here, only that leaders must be trusted to lead. And when you have something this clear, this black and white, you have men who can see clearly on the one hand and you have men who are blinded by greed and envy and ambition and lust on the other. The days are dark and are not likely to lighten any time soon, and the need of the hour is men who will fix their eyes on Jesus heedless of the fallout, heedless of the complaints and shrieks of offense, willing to lay their lives down for their sheep, not able to be bought by any distraction, any fear tactic, full of joy in the glory of the cross.
Conclusion
Ok, last thing. Maybe this is all a bit confusing or convoluted, and you’re not sure what to think or who to believe. Let me suggest this little litmus test: of the parties involved in this little spat, which would give you the most biblical answer regarding boys and girls in contact sports or women in the military? Would Mrs. Moore and her supporters tell you in no uncertain terms that girls should not be playing contact sports and boys should not be clobbering girls on a football field, and certainly not manhandling them on a wrestling mat? Would you get a clear, straightforward answer or would you get caveats and exceptions and relativistic blather? Should women be mustered for combat service or not? Who are you most likely to get a clear, biblical answer from? And if Mrs. Moore and her supporters insist that girls can too get clobbered on a football field, and they can too get blown to bits on a battlefield, then what is everyone up in arms about? Why are the very same people objecting to what Pastor MacArthur said? By their standards, Pastor MacArthur might as well be Mr. Rogers.
Michelle says
Excellent post! I agreed with every word of it except the word ‘flaunt’. Beth and her ilk are not flaunting Scripture, but rather flouting it.
Toby says
Ha. Thanks. Guilty as charged and… fixed.
Kaley says
Outstanding
Tommy says
So well done. Thank you, sir.
Subscribed.
Rob McIver says
Excellent article and answer.
S H says
Fantastic article! I love the juxtaposition of women preaching alongside girls/women competing with/against men. To God be the glory for the clarity and forth-rightness you’ve brought to the issue.
Thank you!
Trevallion says
Thank you for standing up and defending truth. I agreed with almost all aspects of your article, but I would humbly take issue with one thing:
In your comments about the impotent modern church, you appear to equate depression with some kind of weak, modern lack of true masculinity. I would just point out that many men of God have struggled with this. Even Spurgeon, who I think all would agree was anything but like the modern milquetoast men you were referring to, famously suffered from depression. Many others have as well.
Not trying to nitpick, but not all who suffer from bouts of depression are weak and unfit to serve. Just my opinion and it doesn’t detract from the points you’ve raised here.
Luis Bruno says
If I may… I don’t understand… depression is less than an optimally mentally healthy state of mind. It IS weakness. I am not sure if you have ever been depressed or worse, but I would guarantee you to a person, that everyone who suffered/suffers from depression would rather not. But take comfort, because in our weakness He is strong. All of our conditions are of weakness… we are all less than Jesus. There is no shame in that.
But I think in context of the article, the issue taken with men struggling with depression is not an equation with modern masculinity, but rather the mental state of a potential leader and fisher of men and how to deal with said depression early on in a secular world that glorifies pills over pulpit; it leads to ‘impotent’ leadership as stated in the article.
There is the human condition for us all… may God continue to be the Lifter of our heads in all times of doubt and depression, but I think your very interesting comment is missing the point, with all due, humble respect. There are very few exceptions, but it would be a fallacious argument to imply because some men rise above that all men can be capable leaders in the church.
Kevin says
This was my exact comment. While I agree with the bulk of the article, to say that preachers who struggle with depression should have been weeded out in basic training is a little heavy-handed and would have, as you say, scooped up Spurgeon in that “weeding.”
Clair says
Yeah and I’m pretty sure it’s throwing shade at jarrid Wilson, which is really mean and unfair. Depression doesn’t make you “effeminate” or a bad person.
Claire says
Yeah it was also a swipe at jarrid Wilson.
Chip Holmes says
Just a thought: What if Beth Moore were raised up by God just as Deborah was raised up by God?
This article says our pulpits are filled with ungodly, weak men. Perhaps a slap to the face of men was needed to make men stand up and take their proper role.
Lisa says
If she was raised up by God, would He have her mishandling Scripture the way she does?
Kevin Anderson says
Deborah was aware and clear that she did not want the role, and should not be in it. She acted as a leader did because men would not, and before she even said yes, she told Barak that it would be to his shame.
Beth seeks to normalize this all, both men’s cowardace and women’s subsequent usurping of their role.
Suzanna McDowell says
Deborah denounced her role in battle as the abdication of a man, not her role as a prophetess and judge, and certainly not her voice.
Kate says
Excellent.
Lindsey says
I won’t address my disagreements with parts of this article. However, I will say that Scripture is taken grossly out of context in the example of the Samaritan woman. Jesus didn’t tell her to get her husband because she needed her husband to speak for her or because he wanted her to go home. On the contrary, He was pointing out her deepest sins, so He could save her. After Jesus revealed who He was to her, please note her response. She did not go back to her home and stay quiet, sharing her experience only with her husband and children or having her husband speak for her. She boldly told the WHOLE TOWN her testimony (women, children and MEN), and in doing so, introduced the entire town to Jesus Christ. I am not using this as an argument for women being pastors. I am instead calling out a disgusting, self-serving interpretation of the Bible. Please do not interpret the Bible to make it mean what you want it to mean or to drive home a point. Instead, see the beauty of the Gospel proclaimed boldly in ever sentence of the Bible.
Joel Miller says
Very well said, I totally agree.
Andy Scott says
A lively, thorough, biblical discussion of a very important issue.
It is appalling what is going on in the church in America today. May God have mercy upon us.
And Dr. MacArthur is correct- it’s not just about preaching, it’s about power.
Jay Hobbs says
Great post. So helpful and clear—and just the right lit must test.
One question on the Deborah reference: I just reread Judges 4-5 and missed the reference you allude to at the end. Can you point out where she says that? Again, thanks so much!
“And yes, the Lord is free to raise up the occasional Deborah in the face of masculine cowardice, but that will always be to our shame and never to our glory, just as Deborah herself said.”
Chip Holmes says
All I meant was that Deborah was raised up by God because of the lack of godly men. Perhaps we have a modern Deborah raised up for a similar reason. That was all.
Andrew says
If she were a Deborah, she wouldn’t promote false doctrine or false teachers.
Jay Hobbs says
Sorry for the confusion Chip, I was just asking for clarity on the post itself. I’m with you and Pastor Toby on the general idea of God having raised up Deborah in the face of cowardly men, but I just didn’t catch how she points it out in Judges. ?
Kevin Anderson says
Judges 4:9
She said, “I will surely go with you; nevertheless, the honor shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hands of a woman.”
Jay Hobbs says
Thanks Kevin.
Joel says
Great article.
Lisa says
If she was raised up by God, would He have her mishandling Scripture the way she does?
Joonas Laajanen says
I agree with you. Thank you. Just a question for clarification: Would you be fine with women learning self defence from their husband’s for example? Like a basic punch, kick, how to escape a choke etc. There’s also possibities to box just for fitness without punching other people.
Aimee says
I rarely comment on blog posts but this was so spot on I just couldn’t resist! Thank you for being faithful to the Word and for having the courage to stand firm.
theRKF says
Interesting thought… But if that were true, wouldn’t the content of her preaching likely be of higher quality?
william davis says
Thank you for standing for truth. Funny how we have women clamoring for preaching and pastoring positions but none want to be the churches janitor?! Tell me it’s not about perceived power….thats what Beth wants more and more of….so from me, BETH GO HOME…of course it will be to her Roman Catholic husband and vice president of Living Proof Ministries….how does that work. A heretic, pagan, false worshipper as vice president of her SBC approved “ministry”…?
Shelley Bethel says
I saw this post off of Lori Alexander’s blog, The transformed wife. Amazing, Godly, humbling. Thank you.
Nathan says
Thanks Pastor Sumpter,
I am glad that you brought up her open letter to men. I think she was right to call for repentance in the Christian community on that point. It is a shame on the men that they are the ones apologizing and not writing that letter. I do wonder why Mac Arthur is taking the heat for that when it sounds like there were much more inappropriate things said to her and about her. This makes me wonder if this is less about challenging sin than justifying a woman in the pulpit.
Thanks,
Nathan
Roy Thomas says
” If that seems strange and unlikely, welcome to the impotent modern church and witness the many pastors who struggle with depression and suicide — most of them should have been weeded out in basic training.” This writer disqualifies Paul and Charles Spurgeon to preach.
Toby says
No, I said “most” on purpose.
Toby says
To those concerned about my line about pastors who struggle with depression and suicide, please do mark my carefully chosen word “most” — I said “most” and I did not say “all”. Cheers!
Ryan says
Would you say it’s a sin to enroll my daughters in Brazilian jiu jitsu? I’m asking because I’m considering it. Not because I want them to be MMA fighters, but because I know I may not always be there and I’d like to provide a dose of rape prevention. If your answer is no, then is it sinful for my daughters to practice and/or compete with boys? Or do they have to only compete/practice with other girls?
Ken says
Thank you for writing this. Well done.
Jeremiah says
“And yes, this is Christian love because love is treating others lawfully from the heart…”
No, this is christian abuse. Abusers abuse you and then call their abuse love. Christian love, loves their neighbors right to speak as much as they love their own. Taxation without representation is slavery. #thisisabuse #gohome
Jackass says
This page is a troglodyte echo chamber. Most of you wouldn’t recognize God if He spoke to you through a jackass.
H says
Beth disobeys God and teaches other women to disobey God. Her arena tours are packed with women just wanting to feel something and they get to all have a good cry. So pair that off the rails emotionalism with the slop the neo-Calvinist ladies over at TGC/ERLC are serving, and you’ve got yourself a gaggle of hyper depressed women crying in corners about their privilege, trying to figure out what God made them for, while they refuse to simply obey God and embrace His design. Moore will always have advocates because she advocates for those who want to serve their emotions instead of Christ. Most of their husbands won’t say anything because they have androgynous marriages and they don’t want to feel bad about that either.
Rodney Stewart-Wilcox says
I would rather follow the example of masculinity seen in Jesus and how he treated women.
Kesha says
Or perhaps war, fighting, and even football are remnants of a violent society that we’d all do better to leave behind. The position that women can’t be in positions of leadership in the church or elsewhere is sexist and biblically indefensible. Women were the first ones to proclaim the gospel. I grew up in a church that did not allow women to have positions of leadership. Went on to get my MDiv. And eventually, have found my way to a Buddhist community. These repressive ways of the church are certainly going to end up making the church lose more and more folks. The violence that the church has exhibited against women and LGBTQ folks is outrageous. I live in an urban area where many otherwise Evangelical folks take it as a given that women should be in positions of leadership equal to that of men and that the church should be inclusive to LGBTQ folks. The times they are a changing, and it’s obviously causing folks who’ve long been in power, like John MacArthur a lot of anxiety.
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin’
Please get out of the new one
If you can’t lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin’
And thank God for that.
Mark in Montana says
The lyric you quoted doesn’t go deep enough. It’s not the times that are a-changin’, it’s the gods that are a-changin’.
Rev. Dr. Brian says
Outstanding comment. Thank YOU for speaking the truth.
Rachel Ramey says
This world has been at war since nearly the beginning. “And I will put enmity
between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” As long as we are on this earth, where good is at war with evil, war among men is equally inevitable.
It’s naive to think that we can just all “be nice,” and still be godly. So instead, people like you worship niceness, create a false god in your own preferred image, and discard all true righteousness.
Numbers aren’t — our oughtn’t — be our concern. Faithful obedience is our concern. It’s God who brings the increase, and it’s not about how MANY there are in the end. “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
Venjeana says
I do agree with Mc Arthur on women not preaching, however I have a big problem with him saying you can take the mark of the beast and still make to heaven.
072591 says
From what I’ve heard, he has since changed his view about the Mark of the Beast.
Anna says
Men have been nothing but absolute moral failures in the pulpit. Men created the Catholic church and most of Christian history operated under this pagan system of male hierarchy. The Reformers were not any better. Male clergy of both Catholics and Protestants sanctioned the torture and murder of millions of people. Sexual sins and sexual crimes against women and children are a constant trademark of male-only leadership in the churches. History bears witness to this pattern and so does the SBC.
Men cannot even control their sexual thoughts so they require women to be the gatekeeps of men’s sexual morality. As a woman, since the church requires me to regress myself because men cannot control their sexual appetites, the last thing I allow is for men to teach me about morality.
The idiot also confused physical strength with mental competence and moral character. Physical strength is not interchangeable with leadership ability. A man is not fit to lead in moral and spiritual matters just because he has physical strength.
Further, men have used their physical strength to rape, beat, murder, and oppress women. Even wars are disasters that men create. Men are not the protectors of women, in fact, men commit most of the crimes and atrocities in the world.
Every man also comes into the world throught the vagina of a woman, therefore every man is formed second in time after a woman, and has the woman as his origin of life. For this reason, a woman is superior in status to a man. Men do not belong in the pulpit without women next to them.
Triminicus says
Well, I guess that settles it fellas.
Rev. Dr. Brian says
Fantastic post!
Christine says
Well that was completely amazing. Off to work through your archives…
Mark in Montana says
Very good article. I really appreciate it as it helps to continue the iron sharpening iron process. My only problem was with MacArthur’s response to her to “Go home”. I can’t speak to his heart at the time he spoke it, but brief responses like that in our culture are intended to dismiss and hurt. Pastors, even great ones, still sin, and we should not rush to support our favorites if we see creeping cultural corruption. He could have given a different response that clearly outlined the Biblical position without speaking like one of our many cultural celebrities.
Becky says
The great Martin Luther battled with depression throughout his life and ministry, and he was anything but weak and effeminate.
Good, well written piece, but that part about pastors suffering with depression was a bit daft.
Katy says
I feel like what you wrote is so obvious. I’m so glad to read it…and yet, struggle to grasp why people don’t get it!? I know it is a sin tainted world….but goodness….some of this is common sense! Don’t let your daughter play football with the guys! And Scripture is absolutely clear that women aren’t to preach….and yet, women just ignore it! I feel like times are ripe for separating the sheep from the goats. Thank you for being unashamedly biblical!
Kristi says
I’m a theologically conservative complementarian with no strong opinion about Beth Moore. I recently returned from the mission field, where I worked in a country labeled as “very highly persecuted” according to the World Watch List. I was forced to return after being figuratively “blown to bits” by a number of traumas, including an experience of physical violence. As a result, I’ve spent $10,000 on trauma counseling during the last twelve months.
I won’t try to address my logical and theological disagreements with this article, but I would like to go on the record as woman who, while terrible at contact sports, believes women share the responsibility of being “blown to bits” on physical and spiritual battlefields. I would do it again without hesitation. I believe women should be mustered for such things, and many, many women agree with me—enough to create an 8:1 ratio of single women to single men on the mission field. I would trade almost anything to be able to “go home” to the place I was forced to leave.
In reading this article, regardless my thoughts on Beth Moore or female preachers, I am stunned by the harsh and degrading tone used throughout. In the spirit of not mincing words, lisping, or sharing vague feelings, let me be clear: I am wholly convinced that the Bible is compatible with human dignity, but this article isn’t. (The words “seething stumbling block” come to mind.) While I can’t speak for the reactions of others, it’s hard for me to imagine an emotionally healthy woman who would experience this as a “gentle shove.” I hope that Beth Moore won’t discover this article, but if she needs to cite specific names and dates when she has been dishonorably treated by men, I believe she could start here.
I don’t think it would be constructive for me to say more, but I can’t in good conscience move on from this article without commenting on it. I pray the God of Heaven will continue to shape our perspectives in a way that honors the roles He gave us both.
Toby says
Kristi, very sorry to hear of the trauma you have endured for the sake of the gospel. I pray the Lord grants you complete healing in body and soul and that He is pleased to “re-deploy” you in His perfect timing. Blessings.
Bruce says
Hi Pastor Sumpter. Young student here trying to work through how one is to fight in culture. My main question is this: how does a Christian balance a God-honoring pugnacity and a loving attitude when speaking the truth? How is a Christian to know if he should be “biting” or loving in a given situation? I suppose though that that question presents a false dichotomy because loving doesn’t mean just “being nice.” But it’s hard to say that pugnacity can be loving if the person towards whom you are being rather direct won’t see it as loving, and, therefore, not want to consider your argument, plea, whatever it might be. So how does one balance these two things?
Toby says
Good question, Bruce. And thanks. The short answer is that the wisdom needed to know when to fight or when something else is called for is found in Scripture, marinating in Scripture. We want to follow the examples of the faithful there. But this also leads us to find godly examples in our own day, pastors and elders and fathers, in particular who are seeking to model a godly pugnacity along with all the fruits of the spirit. Older godly men who aim to fight/wrestle in the right ways but are also committed to biblical gentleness and humility can cheer you on as you practice and correct you when you get it wrong. Finally, for a longer discussion, I tried to work through some of these questions in my book Blood-Bought World. Cheers!
Bruce says
Very helpful. Thank you.
Susan Carpenter says
So exactly right. I really appreciated the necessary rabbit trail. Sometimes we need things very concrete in example before we see how it applies in less concrete ways. Excellent job.
Brian says
Isn’t it great that we have super manly “pastors” like yourself Toby, to keep the women and weak men in line? Isn’t it wonderful that you’re not one of those pastors of the modern “impotent” Church that might struggle with suicide (weaklings!!), and that you weren’t weeded out at the first basic hurdle of having some compassion on your fellow believers?
Maybe you should consider donating some of your testosterone rich blood to the rest of us? I’m sure you have plenty to spare!
Lessons in fighting would suffice if not… it is clearly a subject which you know lots about — being a “Pastor” requires “considerable physical strength” after all. Or maybe your wisdom might be too “confusing or convoluted” for the likes of me? Maybe I would be an unworthy student of combat from the great and manly Toby?
Anyway, maybe this comment on a five-year old post is futile! Perhaps you’re too busy writing another useless marriage book, in which you cherrypick Bible verses to justify your paleolithic view of women. Or maybe you’re praying that your sons will “slay dragons” (can I tag along?), while praying that your daughters do little else but bear children, which is probably all they’re good for anyway (no offence, just a brotherly shove!).
Pardon my weak, lisping, cowardly, grovelling, and dare I say “effeminate” interruption, oh mighty, well endowed, rugged “Pastor!”