One of the things that all liturgical churches have to come to grips with is that we have been so de-glorified for so long, that the very glory of the liturgy attracts a faux following, a fake following. To be blunt, a homosexual following. If the woman is the glory of the man, the homosexual is the faux glory of the man. He is false, fake, faux glory. He is a fake woman, so he is fake glory. But, like it or not, homosexuals are going to be attracted to all that glory in Eastern Orthodoxy. “Smells, bells,” and long beautiful gowns with candles, incense, and chanting, is going to attract a lot of faux glory seekers.
It is no mistake that Oscar Wilde was not a Presbyterian or Congregationalist. Smells and bells are where it’s at.
-Rich Bledsoe
Stuart says
But is this really true? I have seen this idea asserted a few times now, but in every case it seems to be supported by (at best) anecdotal evidence and potentially fallacious reasoning. “There are a lot of homosexuals in liturgical churches, therefore homosexuals are drawn to liturgical churches because of gowns and incense” sounds to me an awful lot like post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Are there other explanations which are just as likely? For example, one could simply point out that evangelical / fundamentalist churches embrace a “low church” aesthetic as well as an allegiance to conservative family values that precludes the inclusion of homosexuals. Conversely, in contemporary America, the mainline churches that have maintained a “high church” aesthetic have also tended toward Protestant Liberalism and a nominal Christianity that fully includes (i.e. practically encourages) homosexuals. Couldn’t that account for the situation?
It seems like many people have a lot scorn stored up for liturgical worship with smells and bells (I would like to understand why that is), and comments like Bledsoe’s above frankly sound more like potshots than cogent analysis to me.
Toby says
Stuart, Both Rich Bledsoe and myself actually have a deep appreciation for liturgical worship. But if we want to recover a rich, liturgical way of worship, we have to be aware of the dangers. You misunderstand if you think this quote represents “scorn” for liturgical worship.
Stuart says
Toby, thanks for the reply and clarification. I know you do appreciate liturgical worship; I’ve seen Bledsoe’s name a couple times, but I’m not acquainted with him.
I still haven’t seen any legitimate research (granted I haven’t looked *that* hard) that demonstrates that homosexuals are drawn to liturgical worship, any more than are heterosexuals. But I do grant that it’s good to be aware of any and all ramifications of it, and if wise church elders of liturgical churches share Bledsoe’s opinion, then I’m certainly inclined to listen.
Matthew N. Petersen says
It is also perhaps worth pointing out that at least externally, the opposite is true in Catholic Churches. The ones you’re likely to find an open homosexual in are the low, ugly, ones, not the traditional ones.
Josh says
Try to make the bait less obvious. I’ve got a nickel that says not even Matt will touch this.
Austin says
This is pretty goofy. Oscar Wilde was raised in the Anglican church and then baptized Catholic on his deathbed. The idea that he was attracted to a liturgical church because of his homosexuality is anachronistic at best.
Toby says
Austin, seems to me that the connection between Wilde’s sexual attraction to little boys and his prissy aesthetic taste fit very nicely with his life-long attraction to Catholicisim. What’s anachronistic about it?
Bledsoe’s argument isn’t all there is to say, but I find his argument compelling: real glory will tend to attract seekers of fake glory. What’s goofy about that?
Matthew N. Petersen says
Perhaps because Anglicanism has smells and bells? Anglicanism has the real glory.
Laura says
I have to agree with Stuart on all points.
As to “smells and bells”: Incense, robes, and music on multiple instruments in the place of worship are traditions established by God Himself. Consequently, their beauty will attract, and will attract sinners, no less. If another denomination’s beauty of holiness is attracting more sinners, maybe we are the ones who should be reassessing.
Toby says
Laura, thanks for commenting.
Bledsoe’s point actually isn’t a de facto condemnation of any of the liturgical practices he lists. Actually, if anything, he’s endorsing liturgical worship as real “glory.” Glory is good! And yes, we want to attract sinners who need healing and forgiveness. Definitely. But when we take up this real glory, we need to be aware of the dangers. There will always be some drawn to it for false/fake reasons. I thought Bledsoe’s suggestion about the connection between homosexuality and liturgical worship makes good sense. It’s one way to explain the attraction but surely not the only one.
Stuart says
But why would glory be particularly attractive to homosexuals? That’s the aspect of this explanation that I can’t get around. If the explanation is accurate, there must be something about this particular manifestation of glory (i.e. “smells and bells”) that appeals particularly to homosexuals, no? And liturgy scorners would no doubt be quick to conclude along the lines of, “well that’s because liturgical worship is sorta gay.”
rcjr says
If there is a higher percentage of sodomites in eastern churches I wouldn’t be surprised if a higher aesthetic might play a part. The better suggestion however, is that in that church your fathers are pictures of long dead guys who won’t tell you to keep your pants on
Matthew N. Petersen says
Hunh? Are there no Orthodox priests?
rcjr says
There are Orthodox priests. Sadly they haven’t the authority of the tradition.
Jamey Bennett says
What in the world does that even mean, dear RC? You’re talking about the Church that tore a chapel down brick by brick after defrocking the priest for having a same-sex marriage ceremony. You’re talking about the Church actively seeking to ban even gay pride parades. No, RC, Orthodox priests and bishops routinely speak to this matter with “the authority of the tradition” – and while it’s sometimes done in outspoken statements, it’s more often done in the privacy of confession.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/oct/8/20031008-113616-3077r/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/russian-orthodox-church-u_0_n_1338584.html
Jamey Bennett says
Sorry, RC. No dice. You’d be closer to the truth if you said, “in that church your fathers are pictures of long-bearded guys whose writings tell you to keep your pants on.” It’s pretty hard to be gay or an adulterer when all of your heroes are celibate monks and hardcore masculine dudes with big beards who would rather have their fingers cut off and their tongues removed than give up the Faith.
rcjr says
Didn’t suggest the fathers weren’t butch, just that death’s got their tongues.
Matthew N. Petersen says
Ah…nope. The saints are just as silent as Jesus, and just as noisy as Jesus. Both have said what they have to say, and speak no longer.
At least, unless you count preaching as the voice of Jesus. But then…Orthodox have priests.
Josh says
I lose. I will send you a nickel.
Matthew N. Petersen says
Come on, my comment was tiny.
Josh says
True, but followed by three more.
Matthew N. Petersen says
But I don’t see how those can be described as “taking the bait”. One of them, I defended Pr. Sumpter. And one of them I asked for clarification.
Matthew N. Petersen says
To be fair, Lusk is in favor of liturgy.
Matthew N. Petersen says
To be fair, Bledsoe is, I believe, in favor of liturgy.
Matthew N. Petersen says
I just noticed the “why I won’t convert” tagline. Do you really think there are more Orthodox homosexuals than Protestant homosexuals? Let me remind you that the TEC, PCUSA, ELCA, American Baptists, etc. are all Protestant.
Toby says
Matt, I don’t think Bledsoe made any claims about ratios or statistics. He was just pointing out a very plausible explanation for why certain forms of glory attract fake-glory seekers.
Matthew N. Petersen says
I still don’t get the “why I won’t convert” tagline on this one. That seems to suggest you’re saying that the supposed attraction of homosexuals to Orthodoxy is a reason you won’t convert. If that’s not your point, what does the tag-line mean here? If that is your point, what about the actual homosexual attraction to Protestantism?
elisabeth says
Great post! What is outward…visual stimuli…going through the motions is very similar to judaism doing things like magic…but it is telling all is impotent unless they come to Jesus Christ alone……God has a sense of humor!Saturdaynext~
Jamey Bennett says
This is the silliest thing I’ve read on this blog. First you (Toby) liken icons to porn (thanks for taking that down), and now you think homosexuals tend to be attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy. Not only is this anecdotally wrong-headed, it is bare assertion.
As far as our twitter exchange, Doug Wilson—a man I love and appreciate, and do not wish to oppose—thinks I missed the point. The best I can guess is that Doug thinks the point is about faux glory in our culture, &c. Rather, it seems that is actually the premise, and Bledsoe’s point is that *ha, ha, those silly high liturgists are attracting the gays.*
If you still think I’ve missed the point, feel free to explain to me what I’m missing. But until then, it is hard to describe this as anything less than grasping at straws…