Josh Gibbs has a new post up covering our most recent conversation. I have deep respect for a man who takes the counsel of his friends and elders seriously, and since I had responded to some of his recent posts here, I wanted to thank him for that here as well.
But a few other thoughts on the general theme: First, it is very striking that these “conversions” often happen quickly after a number of months of quiet festering. What I mean is that all of the times I have seen something like this, it has been the sort of thing where a guy is first converted in spirit fairly isolated from friends and family, makes the announcement public and proceeds to be confirmed in the new church of his choice. But it’s this very process that I object to so strenuously. It utterly ignores the friends, family, and church that God has given previously. Of course there are situations where it’s happened differently, of course there have been reformed pastors and elders that should have been more faithful and loving and more willing to talk and discuss issues. But it has occurred to me that there is a very similar sort of scenario that occurs from time to time with fathers and daughters.
Imagine: A girl comes home to her dad one day and says, “I met the man of my dreams, and we would like your blessing to get married next week.” This is the first time he’s heard about it, and maybe to make matters more complicated, the dad has some significant concerns about the guy. Let’s say maybe the daughter even came to her dad at one point previously and asked about the guy, and the dad said, “Yeah maybe there are a few redeeming qualities about this guy, but I’ve got some serious concerns about this, that, and the other.” And the daughter said, “Well if you think it’s a bad idea, I trust you. I won’t pursue it.” But, as it turns out, the daughter has been seeing this guy on the sly, they’re madly in love, and now they’re planning to get married. It’s the dad’s duty in one sense to tell the daughter “no,” and give his reasons. But the more fundamental question has everything to do with trust and loyalty and love. Why haven’t we been together on this? Why didn’t you come back and ask more questions? Why have we not been discussing these issues for the last number of months? And so on. It will not do for the daughter to insist that by marrying this man she will actually be getting closer to her dad.
Which is again why I would appeal to questions of loyalty, trust, and honor. Who do you trust? Who has God given you as your fathers in the faith? Of course they are not perfect, of course they have failed in various ways, but they are your family, your people, give them the love and honor God calls you to give them.
And this is not at all a refusal to tackle the difficult questions. Of course not everyone has the time, inclination, or ability to do tons of study, but it would be far more helpful for people pondering these issues to go to their pastor, father, elders, and friends and say, “I’ve been wondering about icons, what do you think?” I for one would want to say, “Hey, that’s a long, complicated story. But let’s start meeting together, reading some books, and discussing the issues.” But it’s a little more difficult to have that conversation when someone has already made up their mind after having read little to nothing on the subject.
And actually this has everything to do with icons. The question is not whether but which. There will always be icons, but the question is which icons are most suitable for representing God to his people. God is not anti-icons. It is clear from the very beginning that he has always intended to have images of himself and lots of them. But he objects to being portrayed in ways that significantly distort the kind of God he is. Chiefly, he wants to picture himself, and he wants his pictures to be alive. He wants his images to have hands and feet, mouths and ears that work. He wants his images to speak words of comfort to the downcast; he wants his images to rebuke the foolish. He wants his images to have hands that can be used to heal and touch and embrace. He wants his images to have eyes that see the needs of others and have ears to hear their cries and respond. In short he wants images and icons that are truly like Him, full of mercy and compassion. There is absolutely no problem with venerating images of Christ in worship so long as they are alive, so long as they are the images that God has authorized, the descendants of Adam and Eve that have been remade and renewed according to the image of God found in Christ. And this is precisely what we do when we say, “The Lord be with you/And with your spirit.” This is what we do when we Pass the Peace and greet one another with a Holy Kiss. Kissing icons? You bet, so long as they are living, breathing icons of our Lord Jesus.
Let’s have generations of this kind of icon veneration; let’s have a rich tradition of honoring fathers and mothers and wives and husbands and children and grandchildren according to God’s word, a legacy of caring for orphans and widows in their distress, and along the way we can talk about the proper use of Christian art in worship (which I am not opposed to at all). But a refusal to honor and listen to the living icons all around you is iconoclasm at its worst.
Joshua says
This argument gives death a much greater sting than I believe Christ calls us to hold to. I really don’t believe death has the power to do what you’re arguing for.
Toby says
Joshua,
Can you explain how Christ calls us to hold to something different?
Where/how is it indicated that the image of God is something disembodied?
Joshua says
Pastor Sumpter,
If death is conquered, then it seems we ought to pay death as little mind as possible. If death can not separate us from the love of God, then how can it separate us from the love of God as it exists in other people? And should we not live in such a way that credits the love of others, dead or alive? Should we not act in a way that refuses to forget them, honor them?
I imagine that you could answer, “Of course” to these last two questions, but I would exhort you to consider icons as one of the ways in which we say, “Of course.”
Icons are, of course, for weak Christians. But Christ is a Man who blesses the weak, and not in spite of that weakness.
We are a woman. We are desperate. See the faith of the people of Nineveh who covered even their animals with dust. This is desperation, and it is always honored by Christ.
Toby says
Josh,
Two thoughts:
First, since death is conquered, we should pay death as little mind as possible. Agreed. This is why Christian funerals should be joyous celebrations. But the Christian hope is in the resurrection of the body, and short of that the reality of death still impacts the body of Christ. Death is still an enemy to be finally thrown down. Otherwise Paul’s arguments throughout 1 Cor. 15 don’t make sense.
And none of this means that we should forget the faithful saints that have come before us. Remember them? Honor their memories? Thank God for them by name? Absolutely. And art is one of the ways cultures remember and give thanks. Sure. But this is quite different from talking to pictures.
Second, Paul explicitly assumes and teaches the Old Testament standard for images/pictures of God in Acts 17. In fact if there ever was a time when God overlooked such desperation as finding God in a picture it was before Christ came, but now God calls all men everywhere to repent of such foolishness (Acts 17:28-30). Notice that Paul’s polemic is based upon his assertion that ‘we are God’s offspring, we are his sons and daughters.’ We are his images. Paul specifically says that the divine nature is not like gold or silver or stone or art of man’s devising. And how can we recognize the true icons of the living God? They live and move and have their being in Him. They are alive like their maker.
Joshua says
Pastor Sumpter,
Why would you suppose someone who has been saying the kind of things I have been saying would find your explanation of the matter unsatisfying?